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Dr. Mark Baker – Overcoming Shame

March 8, 2019 @ 12:00 pm - 1:00 pm CST

|Recurring Event (See all)

An event every month that begins at 12:00 pm on day Second of the month, repeating until November 8, 2019

Author of:
Overcoming Shame: Let Go of Others’ Expectations and Embrace God’s Acceptance

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Interview Transcript

Note: transcript was automatically generated by YouTube, so there may be typographical, gramattical and spelling errors.

Shalom and welcome to this edition of revealing the truth will we cover the headlines the heart lines and biblical truth I’m your host messianic rabbi Eric Walker shame is debilitating it ruins relationships thwarts growth and destroys hope it can masquerade as various problems guilt Envy pride resentment but until you heal the core issue freedom will remain out of reach our next guest dr. mark Baker has received a PhD in clinical psychology master’s degree in theology as well as a certificate in psychodynamic psychotherapy he serves as the executive director of the Lavi counseling centers in Pasadena and Santa Monica California he’s the author of several books including Jesus the greatest therapist who ever lives which has more than 2 million copies in print he joins us the second Friday of every month at 12 o’clock he’s the author of overcoming shame let go of others expectations and embrace God’s acceptance and we welcome him here’s a good friend to talk about overcoming shame with dr. mark Baker mark welcome to the program you see you Eric it’s always good I look forward to our conversations and and so do I you are truly a brother to me and I have shared before that I have a couple of safe people in my life and over the years that you have been a part of this program you have become a brother to me a safe person to me someone that in the middle of the night in in a very hurt and troubled moment when I thought about who can I reach out to I reached 3,000 miles away and you answered me and you answered me in a way that was affirming confirming and challenging which is your style is to affirm to confirm and then to challenge and so you treated me as a friend and as a patient and in all the ways and there’s a brother and you you you were there for me during the process and the follow-up and and I thank you for that it means the world to me there’s so many things like what you and I discussed and and family situations good bad really really bad awful terrible the worst all exist out there and they begin to manifest in different ways but they go back to a common point and that is a point at a point of origin of where the same encounter or the same occurrence began and we talked and we just touched on it briefly last month that for the last ten years the suicide rate in America or even across the world has increased yes it is and I find that so disconcerting because I don’t understand the concept of suicide I it’s something that I don’t I don’t comprehend right right so that many of us don’t unless you’ve been in that state it’s hard to imagine plus during this time that the suicide rate has increased and actually it’s been increasing for the last several decades over the last three decades during that time we’ve eradicated more poverty in the world than we’ve ever done before and in any in any time in history so as we’ve become more prosperous our suicide rate has gone up it’s ironic it’s hard for us to understand wait we’re we’re living we’re living better lives we’re lifting ourselves out of poverty and we’re killing ourselves more often in the United States there are there about 50,000 people that successfully commit suicide every year that’s more than the homicides in our country we’re killing ourselves more than we’re killing other people in the United States and there’s something terribly wrong about that it makes your mind it boggles your mind and for those of us who are who are sort of sitting and thinking rationally and maybe emotionally not feeling too bad about about our lives it’s hard to imagine why you’d want to stop so I think it’s important for us to have this conversation because Anu and I talked about this or this conversation today was that triggered by the fact that a pastor who was very loved here in Southern California who who committed his life to helping people struggle with mental health problems himself took his own life now I’ve known other cases of this a pastor is taking your own life but that’s really mind-bending you know how could that possibly be those of us who know the truth about life how would it be possible for us to take our own lives and I know there are people listening to this conversation right now who have had those thoughts and some of them are having those thoughts right now they’re wondering how do I go on but maybe my life would be better if it just ended today or even some are more serious thinking they’re either actually contemplating taking their last day so I think our conversation today is an important we want to invite people into this space where we can be honest about something that is is growing in its problem in our prosperous times so you know I know this that wealth prosperity and fame doesn’t protect us from the the real issues the real issues the real battles in life are with principalities and powers and and those battles are inside of us and it’s a myth for us to think if only I got richer if when I got more famous but Wayne I’m more popular you know that would solve my struggles it doesn’t it doesn’t so I welcome this conversation I think we need to happen you know the pastor we’re talking about is Jared Wilson he was a prominent pastor in California who ran a suicide outreach group and he took his own life now here was somebody who devoted himself too port people who were struggling with suicidal thoughts and they were coming to him meeting group therapy and exchanging stories encouraging each other he was a strong encourage er but he was also a part of his own support group but aren’t we all yeah right so so how do we get to the point where we we almost we almost validate here’s a pastor that says that I’ve had suicidal thoughts do we elevate them to be a person that says oh he can be more empathetic and more effective because it’s like an alcoholic I’ve gone to a been clean and sober for 25 years an ominous start a bar ministry I’m gonna go to the saloon and I’m gonna go in there and I’m gonna hear the stories with the other guys and while they’re having their shot in the beer I’m gonna have a ginger ale or the Narcotics Anonymous and while everybody’s doing their lines or the guys are running to the restroom I’m gonna be I’ve got that problem handled i I’ve always heard and and been taught you don’t do that that’s right that’s that’s not a good course of action so and and listen may the lord have mercy on the on this poor troubled soul and the hearts that were broken and the perpetuating hopelessness of the message of his own suicide is as tragic as the loss of his own life we’re yes yes it is and that’s what this conversation is so important it’s important to start the conversation by realizing there are several reasons people have suicidal thoughts it’s not just not just one so there isn’t there isn’t one answer women attempt suicide far more often than men that men are better at it we’re more successful those who actually complete suicide eighty percent of the time it’s men so we don’t think about it much but when we do we do it and for men usually we use a firearm so it’s that’s why we’re so successful women tried drugs poisoning overdoses and those are not as successful so that women think about suicides much more often but when it occurs to a man he takes a direct in an effective pasture path to do it so we have to take this seriously and in the vast majority of cases of people actually take their lives and I’m certain this was true for Jared they’re suffering from a major depression they’re suffering from a disease this is a biological disease that actually changes your biology and this is important it changes the biology of your brain and so the brain cannot function in the same way so this is really important for actually most people who are hearing this conversation if they’re having suicidal thoughts the thought of taking your own life it’s very likely you are suffering from a biological disease called depression and it changes your thoughts your your the substances in your brain are out of balance and it’s gonna cause you to think in ways that are actually distorting you’re going to catastrophize more something that’s a little problem becomes a big problem you’re going to think the hopelessness takes over where you begin to think well I can’t do that or this is no good or that’ll never be solved how am I going to live without my boyfriend now you have this hopelessness that is toxic and this then this calms from the imbalance in your brain of this substance that’s substance they’re out of balance and hopelessness is a central feature of suicidality and we we think that we as people of faith are immune to hopelessness we are not there’s a difference between faith and hope those are two different things and actually the most tragic state of being is to be a person of faith who lacks hope a person who knows there’s a God I believe God’s miraculous power I see God’s miraculous power but I’ve lost hope that it’s there for me so I can believe in God’s power but lost hope in its efficacy for me this is the worst version of the dark night of the soul where God’s not we feel God’s not only torturing us and pruning us to become better but actually he’s abandoned us in in the torture so those of us who are people of faith we’re vulnerable to a particular depth of hopelessness that people who don’t have faith are not subject to because we know there’s a god we see God our act miraculously in people’s life but just because I have faith doesn’t mean that I’ve lost hope that that that God’s power will be there for me and that hopelessness when you’re depressed is magnified so if you have this disease of depression your hopelessness is on steroids when in 2013 when I was totally betrayed and I went to Covenant Christian counseling to Gil cracky who specializes in counseling of pastors who have been betrayed now we’re in Birmingham Alabama it’s not the big metropolitan New York City where you would think that somebody would have a practice that was so specialized it’s specialized right I in a little city like this but we have 2,800 churches in this little burg of a million people in the metropolitan area now he he is the pastoral care pastor of the law this Anglican Church and so he he had just has Mondays and he does eight appointments on Mondays but still when you think about that it that’s still a lot that’s that’s and so when it came time for me to get a referral because I wanted to talk about how as a believer putting this position being betrayed by fellow believers by my board by my wife by everybody I everybody in my world was now no longer in my world I was now shunned I was now an outcast I was I was a I was a Quaker I was a Mennonite I was I was out right where I had been an executive on the board I’m not out I’m not even I did I don’t exist I don’t breathe I’m gone out and it was because of the betrayal that had the betrayal been revealed of it wasn’t that I did anything it’s what they did with what they thought I did but the soul mishandled it that they kept it a secret of how they handled it because they would have all had to be removed from their own pulpits their own positions their own it would have been a domino effect across an entire almost denomination because of the mishandling of it and so it was easier to say we’ll sacrifice the one we’ll send will send about to Azazel well let him disappear and we’ll just go back to normal and I was like okay biblically there’s got to be a way for me to be able to process this and handle this so I went to a specialist who did that and in five sessions because I was so I was so steeped in this looking for the answer and that’s so the sections that he was going to refer me to I said oh yeah I already have that already are I got that one highlighted he said okay they don’t want you to go and Tenten I don’t want you to read this oh no no I’ve got that one that one’s already highlighted and oh and here’s my notes about this one and so after five weeks he finally said to me he said okay it’s enough already he said you know what to do you’ve done it all right now they’ve given you the finances to take a year off take a year off you’ve processed this you’ve done this you’ve done this by the book you’ve released it your hands are clean if Mount Vesuvius consumes all of them I you’re nowhere near the lighting of the fuse of Mount Vesuvius you’re completely released you’ve been set free you’re fine I’m not worried about you I’m releasing you goodbye go as a matter of fact I want you to return to the pulpit but I want you to return my pulpit so a year from now Holy Week of 2014 I want you to be back preaching again okay the mantle has not been taken from you as they try to convince you that you wouldn’t have ever gone up in this position had it’s like the the Abimelech going to Abraham and saying so tell me what is it that you saw in me that you thought that I was even capable of doing something like that Roy it was that kind of scenario but the point was is that we have become the only army in the world that shoots their wounded yes that’s true it’s that and this sounds to me that Jared Wilson is the poster child now for a clarion call that says that the church must address mental illness within its own community we must remove the stigma right of people getting treated by psychologists it can’t be a secret that somebody’s in counseling it can’t be a secret that we have referred girls it can’t be a secret that you’re on medication you should have people that you talk to and we have to have mental health resources available in churches our seminaries need to have coursework right you did it right and you did it and and I don’t I don’t know if I even even even ask you why did you get a master’s in theology and a PhD in clinical psychology it is it’s it it’s the most needed merger that exists but you’re like the only one I’ve ever ever knew that did it well because I saw that problem decades ago when I was a young man I went into the ministry first right out of college I went into a campus ministry work with college kids and they’re in the particular church that ordained me to ministry did not require a degree in theology they required you to understand the Bible and I had a thorough knowledge of the Bible I’d read it several times I was been preaching from it for four years and so they said okay that’s all the qualification we need we’re gonna hire you to lead our campus ministry at the University of Kansas where I had graduated and so I took over this College ministry and it was thriving within two years and in a Kansas you might think Kansas is in conservative not Lawrence Kansas not the University of Kansas right liberal it’s a liberal school and and Christianity there’s macht so it was a hard it was a hard ground for us to break but we stood our ground there and it’s been still very close friends with the people I partnered with the ministry there but what I saw in those two years particularly on college kids that’s where women attempt suicide the most is during that age it’s the second leading cause of death from sadly from 15 to 25 year olds the second leading cause of death is suicide now how crazy is that when they’re at the there’s excited and they’re young they’re all beautiful they’re there the University and their educated and I saw these particularly the women but men too I suppose attempting suicide on my watch and I thought oh my goodness how am I going to lead this girl to Christ if he’s dead you know they these kids were coming to me you know wanting to hear the good news and and attempting to take their lives before they got it so it to me it was it was in my face and I remember my grandfather who was the elder of the little church that I grew up in with an eighth grade education having people come over to his house and seek counsel for their lives and the only book they ever saw him read was the Bible and I would see these people come over to his house and they’d disappear into his little study and they come out wiping their eyes shaking his head and saying Thank You Wallace you’ve helped me so much and they go on with their lives you know these pillars of our community seeking counsel from from this uneducated man other than knowing the Bible and I remembered that and I thought I need to I need to get educated this isn’t this isn’t the 1920s anymore like my grandfather was able to do that so I looked all across the country and there was one school that that was accredited by the American Psychological Association to offer degree in psychology at a Christian seminary there was one it was fuller seminary there was only one in the eighties I thought well that’s it you know that’s that’s where I’m gonna go and so through actually a series of miracles I ended up going to fuller to get what I thought was a much needed blending of understanding what are these troubled emotions that are going on the lives of people that are keeping them from coming to Christ and and I’ve learned later it’s those same troubled emotions that’s keeping them from living the christ-like life I find so often it’s not a lack of Bible knowledge or even a lack of faith that produces problems in the way we treat each other and treat ourselves but it’s a it’s an ignorant when it comes to our own emotions our own emotional life and blocks there that we’re on we’re unable to get past so that was my original impetus to go into this field and I and I have been doing it ever since and I to work with pastors and come to me and how for decades unable to tell their story they feel this pressure to be in an actually an idle lies level figure in the community where people need them to be better to be perfect it’s a way of living vicariously spiritually through someone else because I’m aware of my own faults I need to believe there’s someone out there that doesn’t happen and the pastors are in this very awkward position where they can’t be honest about their struggles and and I have found over the years courageous men and women who show up in my office men and women of God who are leading the Christian Church all over the country some of them sit in my office and with tears confessed suicidal ideation I’ve had a pillar in in the Christian Church sit in my office and say I’m ashamed to admit this but now when I was driving home I had the thought of just pulling into the other lane of oncoming truck I’m coming traffic helped me understand this how could I do that I have two kids at home help me understand how to even have that thought and then we do the deep dive into these emotions and depression now the depression changes your thinking and this is important depression not only accentuates hopelessness but depression accentuates shame accentuate puts gasoline on this lie that you are unworthy you are unworthy to be here on the planet you are unworthy to do your ministry you’re unworthy to be a father a wife you’re worthy to be a mother and in depression changes how could we believe about ourselves and we believe becomes to believe a lie about ourselves because of this disease of depression and shame is one of the core aspects of that what I found is when when men and women of God have this disease of depression which is a real disease that makes you think depressive thoughts you lose interest in things you have your fatigue you can’t concentrate every day seems dull and you like you lose joy and the thing it gave you joy before this is a real disease and when you realize you have that and still no God you then feel uh tersh aim about yourself for having this disease you don’t know it’s a disease you think you’re lacking faith no it is not an issue of faith it’s an issue of hopelessness it’s an issue of shame and it’s an issue of depression these can be treated we can treat these things and and we believed in the lie that well it’s just because I’m not a good enough Christian now why would a Christian ever think of taking their own lives because they have this disease that needs treatment and we can treat this disease and then then we feel this shame that makes us feel unworthy to even be here on this planet because we have this disease that we don’t understand that is changing the way we think so we in the church need to know this we need to raise our awareness we need to talk openly about depression we as men and women of faith because the nature of the pastor is is isolating because others don’t want to hear about my fault they don’t want to hear about my struggles they want to hear about my victories they’re perfectly willing to heal my hear about my struggles if they’re over but they don’t want to hear what I’m struggling with now and and where can I go to talk about those things we have to create space where we can be honest and deal with these emotional struggles of hopelessness and depression and shame because they will eat away at us until we get to that place where the option of suicide then seems like a real option because depression distorts your thinking and one of the reasons people attempt suicide is because they feel so out of control they feel I know God I know God’s will I can’t stop these sad feelings I can’t stop this feeling of hopelessness I can’t stop this feeling of worthlessness which is shame so then I have to control it I have to stop this insanity and the the distorted fantasy comes into the mind well how I’ll stop it is by stopping my life I’ll move on to heaven and I’ll stop my life here by trying to control feelings that were never meant to be controlled they were meant to be solved they’re meant to be explored and embraced and tolerated and understood and shared and in the sharing of those things we find healing we don’t get to a perfect place but we get to a place of healed and and believing the lie that I can control it we’ve taken my own life is believe in a lie now I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches is that if you commit suicide it’s an unforgivable sin there are no unforgivable sighs I don’t believe that at all that’s a lie that’s not biblical I think we make mistakes and I think suicide is one of them it is when I’ve decided to make a permanent decision for what is not a permanent problem I have a permanent solution for an impermanent problem and it’s a it’s a bad choice but it’s it’s not one that God doesn’t understand we have a very very big deal you know you’ve hit on so so many critical issues and I’m gonna throw a challenge out there because I know that there are presidents of seminaries who have been on this program who actually will go and watch YouTube and because they’ll write to me and tell me a pastor who is truly pastoral cannot have any friends Kent he can have friends from college he can have friends at a town but he can’t have friends in town right he can’t pick up the phone and say hey let’s go bowling or let’s go get me you’ll go have dinner together okay because once I’ve had a conversation with you where you’ve told me something it’s now pastoral it’s not privileged and my relationships changed so I cannot have friends and that’s my mindset because and they don’t tell you that in school they don’t tell you that one seminary you you can’t have friends okay so it’s not the same it’s not it’s not the same job as your buddy has he’s got all kinds of friends okay but friends and ministry are different okay there was a point in my life where I thought I had no friends there was a point in my life one I couldn’t I couldn’t have reached out to to you because I didn’t and God’s economy and what God was calling what I needed in my life as friends were not guys to go to the movies with or to a ballgame with what I needed was a pure friendship I needed I needed a Mark Baker we’re good at two o’clock in the morning when I needed a friend I couldn’t call a guy that I would call my friend because I would wake him up his kids up and he wouldn’t even understand what I was talking about yes but I could I could send in the dark of the night with the only screen I could send you exactly my most intimate personal thought reaching out to in that moment my best friend right and that’s what God provided me and so once I had this understanding that all over the world I have people like this I’m one of the most blessed men in the world now I don’t go bowling and I don’t go to the movies and I don’t go to a lot of ballgames but I’m not alone not alone I’m not alone okay number two this is something that if you slip and confide to somebody that you think of yourself as a fraud because you can’t possibly be a sinner and being the pulpit preaching against sin when you’re out there committing sins so you must be a fraud right so we have this struggle this war but Paul talked all about it it was his struggle – yes he did things he ought not to do and the things he should do he didn’t do this was the struggle this was the fraud syndrome this was the wait a minute I know the scriptures say I know what I’m supposed to be doing I know where I’m supposed to be I know how I’m supposed to be doing it but I’m not because I’m just a guy I’m just I’m a little Pauline I’m just I’m just a little Polly I’m not rabbi show the head rabbi of Turkey I’m little Polly I’m just some guy that has some guy thoughts right we’re a guy thoughts and so we walk around carrying this mantle of I’m a fraud right and I have to be an academy award-winning fraud and that’s what’s gonna make me really really big and I’m gonna get to the pond so big that I’m now isolated and I have to have a hundred people go through before you ever get to me and then all I have is family and so that’s wonderful so I expand my family but because I have expanded my family to a degree now there’s going to be the invitation in the opening that when the enemy comes in he’s in come running one of them write to one of my kids I and then there’s gonna be something that’s gonna bring shame to my ministry George because my kid got picked up for shoplifting and my kid got picked up in a prostitution ring or my kid got you know picked up trying to pick up another guy or whatever it was they bring shame to a ministry and and all of a sudden because that’s because this is the the calling and it’s it’s the church does not provide that in the seminary does not provide that it’s not it’s it’s not course working it should be there should be if you remember and I know you remember that there was a point in your life where everything you did for the rest of your life was gonna be determined by your cooter preference test you remember the remember that remember that right that would that wasn’t as you determine what you were going to be that was it right that was it here it is says it right here all right I never got the results I have no idea what I was supposed to be I never got back my cooter preference test so I never knew if I was supposed to be a lawyer and I never received a single piece of counsel educational counsel in my life in in elementary school middle school private school boarding school or college somehow or other would when they got to the W’s they just decided they were cutting out the Walker in and that was it and so I was like this pinball but but but I was always hitting the bumper and getting good points all right so it wasn’t until I you know dropped through the hole this is what happens to people they drop into that hole that that that rabbit hole that Alice dropped into and so we we get lost in this and this is this jared wilson and the after effect is is phenomenal we’re talking with dr. mark baker author of overcoming shame and the book Jesus the greatest therapist who ever lived we don’t talk enough about that book still one of the best books ever written today about the greatest therapist the therapist that I see every day several times a day but dr. mark Baker who joins us here on the second Friday of every month at twelve o’clock as we talk about overcoming shame and today we’re talking about you know one in five adults of experience to mental health issue one in five have experienced a mental health issue I know I have you have confessed you have we’ve talked to other people and guests have been in the program they have and it’s it’s we have demonized something that should be not demonized it should be brought out in the open because it’s a real struggle and it’s a it’s something that the church is going to have to step up you know maybe you don’t spend fifty thousand dollars of your mission budget going to paint houses in Honduras maybe you set up fifty thousand dollars and you get a young starting out psychologist and put them on staff and you start out by putting all of your staff through mandatory counseling and you start right there with everybody who walks in that building as an employee and gets paid to have them go through counseling so that they can help themselves before they get too far down the path and start there and then make it available to the congregation we’re gonna take a short break and when we come back we’ll continue with overcoming shame with dr. mark Baker we’ll be right back the Lord meets you right where you are and so does ignite Ignatians new live streaming outlets you can now watch revealing the truth revealing the Bible and prophecy revealed simulcast live each Monday through Friday from 10 a.m. to 1 o’clock p.m. Central Standard Time on YouTube live Facebook live vinny o periscope and through our website WWII and acecomm no matter what device you are using our program will automatically scale so you won’t have to miss a single program and if you happen to miss an episode you can always subscribe to the igniting a nation YouTube channel and access over 1,000 interviews and never miss your favorite authors special guests and topics that interest you the most there are lots of ways to see Israel but nothing compares to seeing the land of the book and the people of the book 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rabbi Eric Walker and we’re talking with dr. mark Bakker author of overcoming shame and Jesus the greatest therapist who ever lived mark welcome back to this very special edition as we’re talking about something very important in that suicide and the recent loss of jared wilson a prominent pastor in california who ran a suicide outreach group right it’s a very important subject and i’m going to go back and touch on something you just mentioned a few minutes ago about coming in the realization that you’re not alone that those in the pastor especially feel isolated i remember when i was he was only campus ministry but i was known as the campus pastor I remember that and I remember everyone treating me like I was different and I sort of got the message that I wasn’t supposed to do certain things I certainly couldn’t drink and there was no swearing allowed and there was certain you know you figure out what is that going to tolerate and then it was well I couldn’t share any weaknesses and I couldn’t have any doubts for them faith meant absolutely no doubt well that’s not the definition of faith no faith includes down you know knowledge there’s no doubt but faith includes doubt there has to be done but I was young I didn’t know so I remember feeling isolated in that isolation that is where depression thrives hmm and what we now know psych all and psychologically is that we are not hardwired to do well alone none of us are we have fundamentally relational creatures and I can deal with pretty much anything as you and I have experienced just recently if I don’t have to deal with it alone that’s what makes us different as created beings on this planet we were created for relationship and whatever my struggles are in life I can deal with them better if I’m not alone we know this to be a psychological truth of course we read the Bible we know it to be script be true it’s just how we’re ontological II made and particularly for those in the ministry we are told to believe but you’ve got to do but I don’t want to hear it I don’t want to hear your floor and some of my closest friends over the decades are pastors and it’s because we we can get together and not feel alone I was very close to a Mannion Rick Steadman’s offensive pastor in in seminary and then he went off and started from scratch a church he literally set up a card table at a shopping mall in his wife and as people come by said do you have a church home well we’re gonna start one this Sunday you’re welcome you know people would come by and need to hand out a flyer I mean didn’t seem like a good marketing strategy to me but that’s one that he took he built a church of 5,000 people up in the Sacramento area with with that faith he stepped out on faith right and was consumed by that and we we kind of lost touch because he was just doing this thing up there and I was doing my thing down here and then he experienced a huge betrayal in his congregation after grew up to this huge side we’ve imagined that the politics are involved in the church that big and he had a church split that resulted with deception and ego and and people who are jealous and it’s a long complicated story but you could imagine this happens it was devastating Graham Gaveston these people he loved and he had grown them up to be in this thriving community which would literally be so divisive and and 2,000 people split off from this church to create another Church led by a young pastor who wanted that you wanted that right and and and went on and he was there for years and now has stepped off in their different ministry there’s the end of the story we’ve we’ve reacquainted our need for each other and now once a month I Drive two and a half hours north and he drives two and a half hours south so that we can have lunch on a Friday together to not be alone so that I can share within my struggles and some of our some of our lunches for more about me talking about my feelings and my struggles as they are about him talking about his betrayals in his woman and the truth is we don’t solve a lot of those problems when we’re together but I feel I can be real honest with him and he can be honest with me right what better than because that God meets us there in that moment and and I learned things afterwards because of it you know I found out during my betrayal that I don’t know if it’s a pillar of psychology but people get to the point where the more you know about them and about their problems and the more times you’ve been involved with them and the closer you grow in in getting know that their daughter is a lesbian and another one is a drug addict and another one is is a prostitute and they have all these problems and you know all about it that all of a sudden to get to this realization at some point saying oh oh he now knows all of it what if he tells somebody what if he uses that against us and all of a sudden there becomes from this incredible closeness to all the sudden this ice berg wall that forms and you see a radical change and you have no idea as a matter of fact in this particular situation I spent the night in a hospital room with this person because the family had another situation there was nobody to stay with him so I spent the night there I drove him home when he got discharged for the hospital just way way way hours an hour away from where I needed to be and within two weeks this family had so violently turned against me because I now knew everything about them they’re the fear that I would go public with that information turn them into mortal enemies this is this is shames lot shames lie if this if you know the truth about me you will find me unworthy of whatever my life is whatever my status is whatever I say is true about me shame tells me if you really know me now you will expose me as unworthy of my life so the the thing that’s the chain does most is hide the shame says you must hide you must hide that’s from the from the garden on there was no shame in the beginning and one we become self aware that we needed to cover ourselves and so these people needed to hide because shame was triggered there and here’s the tragic live shame James says you must hide though you know things about me so I must hide from you I must put up a wall for you the only healing for shame is the courage to be vulnerable and experience grace the only way those people could ever experience healing for their shame as I have the courage to be vulnerable with you and then experience grace in your presence that is the only way they can heal it what they’ve done is sealed themselves in a debilitating toxic emotion of shame by hiding from by cutting you off because we’re as I said fundamentally relational and we need that that exposure to our shame and the experience of grace in it in order to heal that’s the only way can be healed and I think it’s it is tragic and this is why I think I I think we’re seeing an increase in suicide over these last decades of prosperous it’s because as we’ve become more prosperous we’ve become less religious our world in our society especially in America we’ve stopped going to church people have stopped seeking God young people when the age is a 15 to 25 who are committing the suicides if you ask them on a survey are you religious most of them are saying no they’ll say I’m nothing in particular and that is the fastest growing religious affiliation in our in our culture today that’s the reason that we’re becoming more suicidal because we’ve lost our connection to God as a culture we’re moving away from him and we’re moving into isolation and that is toxic for the human soul and so those those people as a as a generation are becoming more suicidal because they’re moving away from the truth no no the vulnerability and openness to God and others is where strength is not through isolation and believing God’s irrelevant going to church is irrelevant oh I’m spiritual but I’m not religious and I don’t really need other people or even need a personal God in order to be a good person and that lie makes me isolate and I’m more susceptible to depression to shame hopelessness and to suicidal ideation so I want to say this I think this is important if we as believers have someone in our life that we think are depressed we find them making statements about hopelessness they they seem to feel excessive guilt and you around them and they just seem to be down all the time they’ve lost interest in the things that used to be joyful for them they seem fatigued they’re having concentration difficulties these are all signs of depression and you couldn’t you know it when you see it it’s not just sad for a little while because we’re all sad all right no it’s it’s prolong two weeks or long two weeks or longer they’re in this spot they can’t get out of it two weeks or longer then you ask them the question you’re not gonna put the thought in their mind and the question is have you ever thought of hurting yourself ask them that question you will not be giving them the idea you know if they haven’t thought of it they go oh my gosh no are you kidding I love myself too much to ever do that man I’ve never think of that or you’re gonna get yeah you know what I happened then you’ve opened up a vulnerable conversation where you have the opportunity to offer grace to that person this is an opportunity for healing of the shame that comes with those thoughts this person if they admit this to you they’re believer especially they’re gonna be ashamed of themselves for having that thought and that’s why that’s where you can encourage them to seek help the help of talking with you of course the help of professional counseling if they’ve got this thought of hurting themselves they need professional help and I’m gonna say this this is so true and many times they are going to often meet an antidepressant medication I am NOT opposed to medication when it’s necessary and there are times what it is and a professional needs to make that decision you can’t make that choice on your own no you need to get professional help to know am I in that place where I have this disease that requires a medicine to help restabilized my brain and you take it for you know a few months and then you reach stabilizer brain then you don’t take it but it’s to help you can restore the balance you were created to have in your brain and if you broke your leg you go to a medical doctor so if your brains got something broken and then you need to go to a doctor to help you with that too and and and we need to have the courage to go to this spot invite that kind of vulnerability where we can if we can show grace where we don’t shame them this is not a lack of faith this is the presence of depression these are two different things and I can’t stress that enough we need to have the courage to be vulnerable and then show grace in those moments I have sad thoughts too I’ve had struggles too I have gone to a council myself I’m very open about the many years I spent in psychotherapy myself to encourage others to do the same to seek the help we need it and not live with James lie that we’re supposed to isolate and do it on your own it is an unchristian and unbiblical concept of doing it on your own so I encourage people who are having these these thoughts to seek the help they need Healing is there if you seek it Healing is there because you know if we take a look in the Bible which is my ruling guide it’s your ruling guide we see that there were moments where Moses said take my life Elijah said take my life Jeremiah the weeping prophet was constantly in a state of depression Oh for the condition that he was dealing with there were let lamentations lamenting you know that’s that’s we go through this these are natural and God uses these these people as examples that you will go through struggles that you he never promised that he wouldn’t take you to the desert he never promised Moses he wouldn’t take him to the desert that’s not a promise that’s been made Benny Hinn coming out and saying listen what I’ve been telling you has been wrong this prosperity gospel part of it is true there is a prosperity gospel and that is is that you spiritually will have prosperity financially there’s no promise but spiritually you will be you will be prosperous and if you really honestly are struggling with a problem talk to somebody it’s not a matter about being embarrassed every one of us I have said many times in this program both with dr. mark Baker with dr. Timothy Jennings who’s with us every month talking about the aging brain we talk about depressive thoughts we talk about things that cause us foods that cause us lifestyles which caused us circumstances we put ourselves in but today there’s a clarion call that I want to put out to save the church needs to address mental illness within their own community and stop putting a stigma on mental illness and a stigma on counseling and a stigma on antidepressants and get your staff your wife your children your family members whoever needs help get them to help that Jared Wilson didn’t get and wound up taking his own life let him be an encouragement to you to not ever let it get that far dr. Mark Baker thank you thank you as always for sharing with us here on revealing the truth about overcoming shame and dealing with many of the issues that we believers struggle with everyday thank you very frank oh thank you always good to be with you we’re in take a short break and when we come back we’ll bring you the next edition of revealing the truth

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